Update - "outwith Scotland" etc
Google Books and Google Ngram Viewer
NB. It is only used as a preposition.
- Archie's outside in the garden with the dog. (adverb) Not he's outwith ...
- Ewan's painting the outside of the house. (noun) Not he's painting the outwith ...
- Senga's got an outside chance of winning. (adjective) Not she's got an outwith chance ...
Update - collected quotes
Further update - "outwith Scotland" etc
In Scots
Writers
- Nigel Tranter, well-known writer on Scottish history, in A History of Scotland
They cannot all be leaders, and consequently none are, and more united and less argumentative outsiders step in to lead them, whereas outwith Scotland, their natural energies and drive find scope amongst less combative folk, and they ...
- John Prebble, another well-known chronicler of Scottish history, in John Prebble's Scotland:
although he cared little for the Massacre, believing its importance exaggerated outwith the district
- The Oxford Companion to Scottish History, by Michael Lynch
Only 5 to 8 per cent of all transportees were Scots, half of these sentenced outwith Scotland (hence the range).
- The Edinburgh Companion to Hugh MacDiarmid by Scott Lyall, Margery Palmer McCulloch
... in the Scottish universities or in universities outwith Scotland
In Parliament etc
- The Referendum on Separation for Scotland, Session 2012-13 -
One area that has been raised particularly is those members of the army that are based outwith Scotland.
- Banking in Scotland: second report of session 2009-10
... out the wrong message to individuals outwith Scotland and also firms outwith Scotland who may want to invest north of the border.
- Scottish Economic Bulletin - Issues 1-10
The region, which contains 48 per cent of Scotland's population experienced a net migration outwith Scotland which was 61 per cent of the Scottish total in 1 966/67 and 77 per cent in 1971/72
- Statutory Instruments - Part 2, Volumes 1-2
... justices, is or are outwith Scotland, or in so far as it relates to the carrying out of the duties under section 14(5)(b) of that Act, and these duties are performed outwith Scotland.
Legal publications
Links for selected site searches - "outwith Scotland"
- The Scotsman
- The Herald
- The Dundee Courier
- The Press and Journal
- BBC Scotland
- Edinburgh University
- Glasgow University
- St Andrews University
- Aberdeen University
- The Scottish Parliament
- The Scottish Government
- The Law Society of Scotland
- The Faculty of Advocates
- Scottish Courts
- The Church of Scotland
- National Library of Scotland
Related links
- Outwith - collected quotes
- My earlier post - Some words are simply outwith some people's understanding
- British National Corpus - random examples of outwith out there in the real world.
- outwith - Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary
- outside (preposition) - Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary (Note especially: 3 not part of)
As an American child in Edinburgh some years ago, I got the idea outwith mean south since I constantly heard England referred to as "outwith Scotland". I have usually heard it used to refer to something nearby but not within. Whether that is pure chance or a subtle part of its meaning, I'm not sure.
ReplyDeleteIn addition to "outside" it also has a meaning of "beyond" in the sense of remit, responsibilities, competences, etc, hence its political connotation, even more so nowadaysin the current situation.
ReplyDeleteI have always used it without any complaints from my clients, especially in legal translations.
@aliencowman - Funny you should say that, because last night I was trying to think which prepositions could possibly take an intensifier, and the only ones I could come up with were outwith, outside and beyond, e.g - That's completely outwith my remit; it's totally beyond me.
ReplyDeleteAs regards the 'current situation', I think you are perhaps referring to whose competence the proposed referendum on independence is outwith or going beyond: Holyrood's or Westminster's.
(Note for non-natives, Holyrood is the home of the Scottish parliament, and Westminster the home of the UK parliament. The media often use these names to refer to the two parliaments.)
For those living outwith or beyond Scottish borders, here are a couple of reports from Scottish newspapers on this wee wrangle between Edinburgh and London: The Herald, and The Scotsman. And you can read the background to the whole affair at Wikipedia.
@J.R.Tomlin - As I said earlier, I don't think I've ever used it in its geographical sense (except for just now), so it's interesting that this is the usage you remember the most.
I first heard this term in a contractual sense many years ago from my Scottish boss and the subtlety of the statement was quite valuable in this context.
ReplyDeleteContractually he explained that if a part of the scope such as delivery, exchange rate etc. was "outside" of our control implied we should have had control but lost such control. Whereas "outwith" meant it was a factor we never had any influence or control over in the first place.
I certainly don;t beleive from this context it fits "living outwith Scotland".
I've never heard of this distinction between 'outside' and 'outwith' when it comes to the scope of something. Nor can I find any reference to it anywhere. For me, both of them would have the second meaning you gave, in other words, "outside of, not within", which is entirely compatible with "outwith Scotland".
ReplyDeleteWhatever the case, many Scottish lawyers, parliamentary and legal publications use the expression "outwith Scotland"; just check out Google Books - "law" "outwith Scotland".
Here are a few specific examples:
The Journal of the Scottish Law Society - "There is much in the Scotland Bill to interest lawyers and much of concern to clients within and outwith Scotland ...",
Thorntons (law firm) - "Most Probate practitioners operating outwith Scotland ..."
The Law Society of Scotland - "The Law Society of Scotland can provide information on qualifying into Scotland from another jurisdiction but you should contact our equivalent body if you wish to qualify somewhere outwith Scotland to find out what the processes are."
University of Edinburgh Careers Department - Solicitors - "If qualified outwith Scotland, it is possible to qualify to practise in Scotland by passing an appropriate test set by the Law Society of Scotland."
No, it doesn't fit in "outwith Scotland". The correct form would be "outside Scotland".
ReplyDelete"Outwith" is used more in the sense of "beyond the reach/remit of". When in doubt, leave it out!
As I've said, I tend to use it in the way you've mentioned, but the evidence is that plenty of educated Scots and institutions use it to talk about being outside somewhere. Just check the links I've given and the Google links. "Outwith" Scotland and other places.
ReplyDeleteThe first definition at the Dictionary of the Scots Language is:
A. prep. 1. a. Of position: Outside of (a place or boundary); on the far side of; beyond.
This use is nothing new; the same dictionary has examples going back to the 15th century:
"Endlang the feild outwith the toun The battell fers was"
"Becaus the Marques duelt in the Bog outwith the schirref-dome of Abirdene"
And in more modern times, this is from Nigel Tranter, one of the best-known writers on Scottish history, in his 'History of Scotland' :
"They cannot all be leaders, and consequently none are, and more united and less argumentative outsiders step in to lead them, whereas outwith Scotland, their natural energies and drive find scope amongst less combative folk, and they ..."
And this is from the Oxford Companion to Scottish History, by
Michael Lynch:
"Only 5 to 8 per cent of all transportees were Scots, half of these sentenced outwith Scotland (hence the range)."
And from that other well-known writer on Scottish history, John Prebble in John Prebble's Scotland:
"although he cared little for the Massacre, believing its importance exaggerated outwith the district"
Finally, one from a legal statute from 2000:
"(2) Where any such circumstances as are mentioned in paragraph (c) of subsection (1) so arise as to give effect outwith Scotland to any authorisation granted under the relevant Scottish legislation, that authorisation shall not authorise ..."
All of these can be found at Google Books.
Though this is a rather an old thread, it has some currency, as one hears 'outwith' fairly frequently on the TV and radio nowadays. It is often from the lips of Scottish politicians so, for example, the 2015 Scottish Labour Party conference has thrown up several examples in just this last week.
ReplyDeleteAs children in an English school in the 1960s, we sang, "There is a green hill far away without a city wall", and our teacher had patiently to explain that "without" here meant "outside". Outwith is obviously a lot less open to confusion than "without" and seems ready-made for meanings less literal that the usual alternative "outside". As it is already a part of the northern British lexicon, I think its time may have come - we might well hear its use creep south of the Scottish border over the next few years.
This is been so important.
ReplyDeleteIs is a dialecticism; English people don't use it, Scottish people do. The only examples within this article are to Scottish legislation/dictionaries and/or references made by Scottish people; this by definition does not make it an "English" word.
ReplyDeleteOutwith is certainly used in a geographical sense - see the South Ayrshire Council's Local Development Plan interactive map http://gis.south-ayrshire.gov.uk/ldp/ which uses it quite a lot.
ReplyDeleteHi Garry. Yes, I accept that, and I've already added an addendum with some examples of "outwith Scotland". I've also included geographical Google searches on this page's companion page.
ReplyDelete